Hi , I would like to open this Topic to show an alternative to wood nests. Today is easier find PVC pipes than hard wood blocks to built a thick nest to large parrots. I recognize two great advances in Parrot Keeping : One is suspended cages used in Florida by Ramon Noegel, the other is in the early 90´s in South America: PVC pipe nests in the wild in Peru. Noegel also introduce the Mash for food to Amazons and Macaws, but this is another history. I used it with Amazons , with sucess, basically all of them prefered short PVC pipe nests than taller hard wood ones. In Captivity. In a Breeding Facility. Small Macaws seems to prefer taller nests, maybe because their need to sleep inside cavities. Amazons don´t do that thing. Also they prefer 360* , Open Aviaries. Suspended Cages. But you only could do this in warm climates. Or inside Green Houses. Always better results are achieved with only one specie. A Large group in the same Green House. Avoid mix species. In the Nature they compete for Natural Cavities and in Captivity they become stressed. In early times we think that the birds must have not see each other, in the case of breeding pairs. But the truth is the Opposite. They like to see each other. maybe one or two meters away. That´s a very nice distance. Estimulating thing. A Suspended Cage with a PVC pipe nest inside and a bow of Mash. The birds will be in breeding condiction very fast. The most important thing in breeding Parrots is Condition Them. With food. Especial Food. In truth, if they are in the mood, they will breed in almost all situations. So, Condition is the most important ! Well, I will try to simplify parrot breeding to the Extreme, so many people could breed them cheap and easy. In this Topic the Star is the PVC pipe, and I know that there are many of You that use this type of nest. And there are many creative solutions “hidden” somewhere. I would like to share this space with every one that could post his information , and better, Pics to us. I will try to make a 2m. tall Macaw Nest, and photograph it in all stages of construction to post here in the future. By now I would like to see other people nest projects posted here. But only PVC nests. Solution for climbing stairs, back door and etc....Oh ....I almost forgot about the nest substract : types, maintenance and cleanings....By.
We do not believe in plastic nesting chambers for our parrots. They are very difficult for the birds to chew and customize (part of the courting and bonding process), they do not breathe so that any wet droppings by chicks inside next to the wall can mold easily; the parent birds who will chew log cellulose and feed it to chicks in the middle of the night and at other times during chick development would be in danger of stripping off bits of pvc and feeding them to chicks which could be toxic; chewing psittacines forced to lay and hatch inside unchewable enclosures might be more likely to begin chewing the feathers of neonate chicks as they erupt; plastic is not a good temperature insulator and humidity modifier; it chills quickly and can heat up to a thermal temperature in sunny weather, it may sweat and create droplets when several chicks and a parent are inside during cold nights. It is not a good sound insulator and actually may amplify noises within, unlike thick wood. This can hype up nervous cocks who are forced to be nearby by poorly designed rectangular or small size cages. Such cocks may be drawn to take out their frustrations and aggressions on the occupants of their own nest!!! We see no advantage to frustrating natural tendencies of parrots by discouraging any needs for wood in the nesting environment. It may be a little harder to maintain wood boxes and they may not last as long, but the advantages for the birds are many and we prefer to do the extra work. Our healthiest nesting sites in captivity have always been the most natural--hollow logs which are perfect biospheres for the birds and maintain themselves in cool, dry, clean ways with microbes and tiny ants helping. The second best are heavy two inch thick nesting boxes which are better than plywood. Commercialization of facilities by moving away from natural materials can only harm the development and wise knowledge of the birthed parrots, it will not enhance their conservation value at all.
Very nice post, and I would like to say that I agree 100% with you. The nest is like an aquarium, there are many bacteria and invertebrates that reduce and oxidate the nitrogen compounds , as well as eating some solid detritus. Like the Wild nest of Hyacinths, that there are many wood cockroach in simbiosis with HM chicks´ rich feces. The Wild nests are extremelly clean. My earliest nests were made of tree logs ( Dead Palms and some Hard Wood ). They work very very nice ! But is a bit hard to find many of them. Noegel used wood boxes too, with a roofing tile as a cover. I used many types of nests, that include the two that you say. Both work well. The logs is much better and pleasant to see. But is hardier to clean. And in some ocasions is infected with mites. Especially Dead Palm Logs. A new ones work very well. They are my favorites. And they are the best to breed Parent Raised Chicks, but you will loose the Log soon. Your post is perfect, you touch in a very nice subject : The ecology of a Tree Log. PVC nests work well in Manu and Tambopata. There logistic is very hard, a light weight nest is better. And we could find some solutions about the cheewing problems and drainage of the substract together. I understand when you said about the marks that the birds leave in the tree bark surrounding the hole. Territorial Marks. But we have to equilibrate the things : Some artificial and some natural. For many of us is very hard to find tree Logs, or maybe hard wood could be very expensive. But I still say that I agree 100% with you ! A PVC pipe could be used to solve some wild problems such Bees. Bees prefer wood nests. A Toucan NEVER jump in a 2 meters tall PVC nest. When the Toucan see the Dark Bottom and no climbing walls to grab, the Toucan forget the chicks. The Toucan is a very Smart Bird ! Also if you put some “target” wood boxes for the Bees, you could have chicks in the Box, I mean in the PVC pipe. Also you can control the diameter of the hole, and select a smaller specie! This about the Critical cases such BTM or Caribean Amazons. If we solve the critical probems with the PVC Nest itself, we could use them without problems in Projects in the Wild, and even in Captivity. In truth I didn´t expected such good response like yours ! Very Nice...and I thank you to post here !
Arara, you wrote: “Well, I will try to simplify parrot breeding to the Extreme, so many people could breed them cheap and easy...”
That line sums up alot of what is wrong with breeding birds in captivity. For one, you don’t want just anyone breeding birds as you indicate when saying many people could breed them cheap and easy. Secondly, there has been alot more exposure lately showing the effects of breeders who have chosen to do things the “cheap and easy” way. Bird mills exist because many breeders have chosen the “cheap and easy” alternative to doing things with high standards of avian care being first and foremost.
I saw many simple things working better that “sofisticated” ones, many simple man doing better conservation jobs than many biologists, I saw many humble men saying better things than “expert” ones. I prefer wild Macaws than Captive ones. Freedom is the key word. But I know that Captive Breeding have an importat role in Conservation. Maybe my English can cause confusion because I have short vocabulary, I learn my english by my self , and some times I can´t express myself properly. I´m not breed Parrots Comercially, as you may think. I stopped my activities a few Years ago , due my family sold the small land we have. And my birds are in SP- Zoo, right now. I had just few pairs of Amazons and few pairs of Macaws (SM, RGM, BGM). Maybe I cause some wrong ideas about me. My interest in PVC pipes is to fix them in the wild, as in Tambopata, and maybe use them as an alternative in Captivity. And I would like to say that the microbiology inside the log nest is not the same as found in the wild. Is like an aquarium, the microbiology of the sea bottom is not the same as in the aquarium. Always Log nests and wood nests become very “wet”, with lots of Fungus. That could attack the respiratory sistem of the chick. But I would like to clear up the facts that I agree with you when you said about the problems of Comercial Breeding. I don´n like the “use” of Parrots to Human wellfare. I like them in the wild. I used to work with Charles Munn, in Bolivia and Carlos Yamashita in Brazil. And I would like to simplify things, for simple people breed their birds. NOT to Comercial Factiries, as you think !In reality I don´t like “Factories” ! That´s why I appreciate the two responses posted here! I even have not a captive bird right now ! I leave now in a very small apart. And the only thing I would like is see birds flying ! Not in Cages ! But I still would like to find Solutions for Wild Macaws and Parrots ! I know that Wood Nests are not working very well, so I will try to find a Solution and not judge people that breed parrots to sell or to welfare, hiding behing Conservation Ideas ! So none of the responses help me to find Solutions, its only critcs. And if I have to criticize some thing I will start with Lear´s. All Birds in CAPTIVITY now came from the only Wild source. Campo Formoso. Some of them , basically young chick came from Canudos , captured in front of Stagiaries. That was neglected for more that 10 years. All birds was been trapped AFTER 2005.(PsittaScene 25). I´m Yuri with Hyacinth T-shirt. All Conservation Ideas was already in mind of everybody. And the Birds were been Traped, and every body knows ! This is the wrong thing, not fix some PVC nests in the Wild. Tell me if you can : all these birds have the Poor Man Aviary destination or “First World” Rich Man Aviary ..........."Ordered" Birds......
Thank you for clarifying, Arara. I understand now what you meant. I am happy to hear of your distaste for the large commercialization of breeding practices. I applaud you for teaching yourself English, not an easy thing to do I am told.
Yes I don´t like comercialization, but I like that the captive birds, breed a lot. That´s why I would like to make the things easy and cheap. About Lear´s , we , I mean every one who keep Parrots, have a debit with Campo Formoso Population, due the population was deplated before our knowledge (2005), and I would like to make a Call, to us all, to help, Alison´s Lear Project, as soon as possible, with every thing we can give. I will try to post unpublished Pics and Informations about Campo Formoso Lear´s Macaw in Alison´s topic. About PVC , maybe we can make it better and usefull in wild projects. I would like to write a few lines about a thing that I experienced, and I don´t tell to anyone : I observed many breeding pair in Captivity, that feed their chicks. There is a tendency to leave the Parrots breeding and rearing their chicks. But there is another tendency to colect the eggs and incubate it artificially. I observed that many breeders had lost one bird of the breeding pair before 4 to 5 years. In captivity they seems to loose their strenth when feed their youngs. Before this time one of them will get some oportunistic desease and die ! The other will recover the health ! I saw many cases similar, but I didn´t pay much attention in this coincidence . I used to make the things very Natural and leave the parents raise their chicks, but Today I preffer artificial incubation. Only to preserve the Parents health ! And in adition we can colect two clutches ! I think that there is a decadent process in the parents health along the years. And this not occours when we colect the eggs ! This is what I suspected, not proved yet. About the hand raised chicks , before fledge they could share a big flight cage with older and more experienced Juvenil Parrots, to balance the lack of parents. I had a good experience with PVC. I prepared the substract (wood shavings), washing, drying in the Sun, and putting some powder against mites (very little), just on the nest´s bottom. This powder could broke every bacterial action inside the nest (good ones and bad ones),as well as some Inverts. So, the Natural Equilibrium is forgetted. I used to put some piece of hard wood with bark inside to the birds chew. When the chicks grow up , every 5 days I cleaned the nest , and put a new substrct. I breeded very “clean” chicks. Perfects in feather condition. They are easy to store off season. But we have to cooperate to make it better, as Yellowfronts says , there are many details that have to be solved. That´s why I post this topic. If we make a good “guide” , we can use it in the field. My principal objective is BTM nest solution, to help Toa´s Project. I fixed some nests in the wild for HM and Red tail Amazon, as well as , other small Parrots, other birds and mammals. PVC do the job very well, in some cases Better than wood ones. Except HM, that the nest have to be made with hard wood. I have been in Bolivia and I saw the BTM problem : Heat, Rain, Bees, Toucan, Monkeys......maybe some snake. In my oppinion we have to find solutions for the PVC Nest together with cooperation, maybe it works there...Who knows…
I fixed some nests in the wild for HM and Red tail Amazon, as well as , other small Parrots, other birds and mammals. PVC do the job very well, in some cases Better than wood ones. Except HM, that the nest have to be made with hard wood. I have been in Bolivia and I saw the BTM problem : Heat, Rain, Bees, Toucan, Monkeys......maybe some snake. In my oppinion we have to find solutions for the PVC Nest together with cooperation, maybe it works there...Who knows…
Dear Yuri,
Many thanks for taking the time to explain all this in English - I’m sure it would be much easier for you to do in Portuguese!
I get the sense that PVC can be a useful solution in certain contexts.
One of the challenges as Yellowfronts points out is that parrots like to chew, and as you know Blue-throated Macaws chew like crazy in the wild and in captivity. This appears to be natural. Making it impossilbe by using a material they can not chew like thick PVC might cause serious behavioral problems. It may be possible to have the best of both worlds - making a cavity of PVC, but including both a lining down the front so the birds can climb in, and also a bunch of wood inside (not plywood with adhesives and other chemicals) for the parents and later the chicks can chew on.
Also the bottom of any nest box in the wild can easily be lined with natural materials from another cavity, so that the surface the eggs, chicks, and adults are on is pretty close to natural. Holes can be drilled in the bottom for drainage of course.
In Peru, we used propane torches to burn the sides of the cavities so the would look like natural bark - worked incredibly well.
I suspect that bees may prefer wood, but they’ll set up house in just about any cavity they can find - rock crevice, underground, in tree hollows, in houses, etc.. This is a serious problem throughout Latin America - especially as the Africanized hybrids continue to move north. Years ago, one hive in Guatemala ended up attacking a horse which belonged to the ranch foreman. Since the hive was in a (wood) parrot nest box, the parrots and researchers weren’t too popular!
Thank You Jamie, I agree with you and Yellowfronts, I know and understand the need of Bark Chew behaviour, this is very important, and must not be neglected in a contruction of a PVC nest. I think that we could use some PVC characteristics in our favor, one is Bees preference for wood or rocky cavities, we can fix some pieces of hard wood at entrance to prevent the birds to chew and ingest PVC pieces, that´s could be dangerous, but we can solve this problem. Another one is the bottom, that must be drilled to drain the excess of moisture. Other one is the climbing stairs that must to be very narrow. Burned outside like Peruvian ones. Could be a great for BTMs. The PVC if propered burned will looks like a Palm Trunk. And if we make some alternatives that could mantain the Natural Behaviour of chewing, and the needs of ingestion of pieces of bark when the chicks are young, we could improve the nest site of BTMs in Beni. The idea is to fix a large number of nests in the area, and avoid RGM and BGM competition, as well as bees attacks and Toucan predation. I like the idea of angulated nest box, is very nice concept, but we have another problem that is Macaw acceptance. Maybe PVC have more acceptance by BTMs. The BTM siuation is very very critical, principally about much more large Macaws compeition. I saw a BTM with a beack completelly destroyed be maybe RGM, or even BGM. Maybe this fact is much more common than we believe. Human pressure, Cattle pressure, Fire, all this things reduce nest cavities possibilities and is always a good job fix some more. I really would like to try PVCs in Bolívia. We can cover parts of the nest with some Bromelids or something like that, to avid heat and etc… Let´s work on that............We (me and Carlos) had a report about BTMs in Ararajuba 1997. That´s a brazilian cientific magazine about ornithology, you ca find in the net. There you can find informations about the three trips I made in Bolívia ( First with Lucho and Allan, Second with Carlos Yamashita , Third with Charles Munn and Pocho)......Let´s work ....we have a lot to do in cooperation.......not competiton......TNX Jamie for your post here.
Are you at all concerned about the dangers of PVC? I have been asked this by some people who saw a playstand I made for my parrots out of PVC as they were questioning the safety if they were to chew on it or rub their beaks. It is made out of the hard plastic tubing. No plasticizers I believe which are one part that is considered dangerous in children’s toys, etc. I had researched this before I made it but now am questioning whether I’m putting my birds at risk?
Yes, you are right in many aspects. But as I started this topic, PVC is an ALTERNATIVE to wooden boxes, especially if you are interested in suplement nests for wild parrots (The main cause of parrots decline). In captivity the parrots are in close contact with the nest during the hole day and if you put a PVC nest in the wild , the pair visit the nest only in certain periods. Specially carefull is observed, except with Ararajubas, about parrots hidden the nest site. Very silent and scared about nest surrounding. I tell you this because due this behaviour parrots in the wild do not chew the nest as in Captivity. Also is good to us that have to carry heavy wood nests in the bush and fix them in the trees. PVCs work very fine, and have light weight. I open this topic just to meke people discuss and solve PVC problems like this that you expose. For exemple we have to avoid entrance chewing ! But How ? We have to show oppinions to resolve that thing (Pics are welcome !)! I know that PVC could be toxic or something, but woods have lots of toxins like Jacarandá. Jacarandá is the most comon tree use as Instruments Scale. Like Basses and Guitars. For the Luthiers this tree is very toxic when its powder is absorbed. Many trees could be toxic to Parrots with acumulative effects. I don´t know the degrees of this toxity but I know that woods could be dangerous too. The main Idea with this topic is to solve this problems. Also we have to discuss the benefits of the PVC. For exemple Wild Bees prefer wood nests. Toucan problems could be easy avoided with Tall PVC nests. Problems like entrance chewing and etc. could be discussed here and solutions could be presented. PVCs was used in Venezuela with Forpus passerinus and avoid agressive Sicalis and other small birds to nest and disturb Forpus chicks. In Peru is used with sucess with Scarlets. Personaly I used with Amzona aestiva with great results specially short nests. In captivity special care is needed. Wood nests also have many problems like fungus, mites, excess of moisture and consequently egg contamination by bacteria. But have some benefic things like mantain temperature more constant and etc...(Yellow fronts show us a very good and detailed view of the benefits of good wood nests). I see PVC only as an alternative for some situations (especially in the wild), not for rule to all Parrots. PVCs work fine only with certain species and some species needs wood nests (in ex Large Macaws such HMs and RGMs). For me this experience with PVC is in the beginning, but together we can find some solutions to the main problems and use this both in the wild and in captivity.
If we consider the chewing behaviour of all Parrots, Everything could be a big problem. Wire cages (galvanized), Toxic woods, Plastic material, everything could be potencial dangerous to parrots, that´s why we have to discuss and find solutions. For exemple: Many parrots die of “unknow” cause till some one discovered that the problem came from galvanized wires. The problem was solved ! Also toxic woods, now only certain wood are used to parrots nests and perches. Now is the time of PVC nests. Is in the beginning and we have to solve the problems and use PVCs intead of avoid it completely, because in the wild it works very fine, and it´s easy to instal. I had some Amazons pairs that only accept short PVCs nests. Parrots that use to sleep inside nests I prefer wood nests, like Ararajubas and Primolius.
Techiniques of contruction is also welcome...........Sorry for my english and I spected that you understand me......TNX.
I definitely see the advantages of using this in the field. I guess I was considering the PVC piping that I was using as pretty safe for my parrots as I’m not heating it and it doesn’t have the plasticizers in it...but now I’m starting to get concerned and looking for anyone who knows more about the safety/dangers of PVC than I do.
BTW and off topic for this thread - all of which were rescues from other homes that could no longer care for them. As was posted earlier in this thread about commercial breeders and such, I do not support that in any way. I also personally do not support even individual breeders as there are just so many unwanted and abused birds out there the way it is and many people do not educate themselves enough prior to bringing home a cuddly little baby parrot. This is just my opinion on what I personally do, not to inflame anyone for purchasing a baby or start a war on any breeders out there. I just want to thank all of you who do work with “rescue” organizations, sanctuaries and preservation for our feathered friends in the wild.
Many people can make a big confusion about “Captive Breeding”. In theory or filosofy “Captive Breeding” is an evil thing. My aim is to know parrots very deep and have knowledge to breed them very easy, and this , could be not very clear to other people, that consider Aviculture an evil thing. Aviculture is about “insane” deep study of Parrots. Parrots for me is about all stages(Both Wild and Captive). First : Rescue of sick or injured Parrots, knowledge about food , cage and breeding requirements, Egg incubation as well as hand feeding, preparation to flight , breeding situation (breeding pair formation), possibilities of release them or not, field work, environemental education, and etc...Note that as a Pet I consider only the parrots incapale to breed or to be released. This is fine as a pet. Specially rescued ones . Olds and etc… But a little freedom here is needed conerning about the breeders and pet keepers, that keep the things moving and even supporting Master and PHD thesis and Biologists´ field work and have to be respected as people. As in every Social Segment there are goods and bads…
I realy don´t like people that talk only about parrots in the wild, for me it shows clearly that these kind of people really don´t know the reality of Parrot Conservation. Look at the Kakapo situation ! It´s decline have no link with Parrot Breeders, but the Parrot Breeders knowledge and action could save this specie. Is clear for me that this specie only survive with heavy captive propagation. For this, a lot of background knowledge is needed. And it came from Aviculturists.
If we not consider the uncontroled growth of the human population right now, I agree with ban of aviculture. But this is only filosofy ! Many species need to be safe in Aviculture. The best exemple is about Spix Macaw, where the main trapper is its saviour. If he not trapped all last birds in that time , now Spix is extinct forever. I know the site and in the last 20 years the Caatinga human population grow without control. Now a recovery program is the best thing to do, Captive Breeding , Environemental education, Habitat improvement and etc… The thing that people hate was the thing that will save this specie. Scientific work on that area only serve as a selfish promotion up on a rare specie. And the avoided people are the true heroes of Spix conservation, and this includes aviculturists and trappers.
But in general I agree with you about people that have wishes to purchaise a baby parrot with no engagement in the subject I think that must be avoided, but this is no true about serious Vets and Breeders. This thinking about banning aviculture is not welcome in true conservation of the critical species. Many times people involved in rare specie projects never breed a australian budgie, and like to coordenate the thing that they have any knowledge. Captive Breeding is to people who have extense knowledge in this subject. It´s not a beginner task !
This is the main cause of discussion between Aviculture or Not Aviculture........my message now is: WHAT ABOUT KAKAPO ?????
There are many parrot species that is not safe in Aviculture and their habitat is completelly destroyed !!! What do we have to do with this situation ???? There is no time to loose, many places like this is a violent places , very hard to telling to locals that a bird specie is important… The solution in many cases is a good program in Captivity....like Noah Ark....Yes, why not. Is like Spix, maybe in the future we can release it again. This species is still living, temporarially in captivity. Places like Loro Parque , many times criticized , in truth is a very important place as a knowledge producer as well as keep a good population of very rare and critical endangered species.
The main point is that everybody have to cooperate with our world conservation, and this includes Captive Brreding.
Look at the Barbary Lion of High Ethiopia Mountains and Atlas Mountains of North Africa, now extinct in the wild ! This lion was rescued from Circus and some of Haile Selassie I (Rastafari I) palace cages. All Lions of Ethiopia belongs to the Crown at Selassie´s time and this helps the formation of the first breeding group as a part of a good captive breeding program. Now Florida state of US have some Barbary Lions and maybe in the future they could be release in the wild. There are many people that don´t like Lions in Captivity, I´m one of them but I agree with a good captive breding program and the necessity of a stable captive population to keep this specie safe from the extinction.....That´s the point......
