Ask An Expert: E.B. Cravens

Answered by E.B. Cravens:

Dear Bill,

I am probably not the best person to be answering this question, and I would welcome comments from Jamie or Dr. Speer, Sam Williams or Eva Sargent or others. We have encountered hybrid cockatoos in the past; and have hard about Greys being interbred.

There are, of course ethical questions involved--as there are in most areas of the live animal trade. I do not personally approve of hybridization between species of psittacine, nor of subspecies interbreeding when the types are known to be different, though the latter happened all to often in the past between races of parrots that were thought to be identical or mistaken for the same subspecies.

An interesting quote from Catherine A. Toft, Department of Zoology, University of California-Davis:

"Hybridization is the fastest and surest way to destroy the genetic make-up of a species. It breaks up complexes of genes that allow species to be adapted to their natural environment and to be recognized as potential mates."

Many rationale have been used over the years as justification by those breeders who produce hybrids--from "we are combining the best traits of both species" which of course is absurd, to "they are only being produced for the pet trade," which is a fallacy as we shall see here.

It is easy for us to see a hybrid Ara macaw, for example, because of the distorted coloration. But in aviaries of breeding birds, I have encountered macaws with faint "ruby" (Greenwing/Scarlet) or mili-gold bloodlines in their past. Such birds may only show only one quarter of the original hybridization because they have descended from lines that were bred back to nominate species. This is where the real hidden long term damage of hybrid production "for the pet trade" enters the scene.

Amateurish breeders with few ethical considerations and even less patience will procure at low price a hybrid former pet, then pair it up for commercial breeding with the first candidate to come along.

"We are trying for new and different colors, I have been told." I find such reasoning shallow, and such odd colored parrots lacking in the symmetry and beauty that the gods initially gave them.

Of course, money is usually the bottom line when it comes to such ethical decisions as producing hybrids at a facility.

But , when one tries to disassociate captive and pet industry psittacines from those living in the wilds, merely because there is little likelihood that the former will ever be released to help repopulate dwindling numbers, I think one does conservation of these birds a real disservice.

Is it the role of the bird breeder to assume this disassociation and accordingly condemn all captive parrots, with their valuable gene characteristics, to a second rate role in world psittacine conservation?

I think not, and as an aviculturist who tries to propose conservation logic first--I would beg to differ with such a reasoning.

My role as I see it is to protect for the future; to save and guard and conserve all that is possible in my tiny little piece of captive parrotdom. And when it comes to hybrids, this means I will refuse to dilute any of my pure natural species for any minimalist reason--nor will I ever condone it amongst other true aviculturists.

We either face the fact that we are stewards of a precious god-given gift for the generations ahead, or we play at bird breeding and pay lip service to conservation in order to stave off the animal activists who might just see through our ethical ruse.

I hope this sheds some light on your inquiry. As I said, I am not the most capable person to answer this question.
Best, EB

[Editor's note: As Cathy Toft was noted in the above, we asked her to comment on this issue. Here is her reply.]

Dear Bill:

E.B. has taken a quote from me from one of the articles that I wrote explaining population genetics to aviculturists precisely for the reason of persuading them not to hybridize parrots in captivity. (A comprehensive summary is in Toft, C.A. 1994. The genetics of captive propagation: A manual for aviculturists. Special Publications of Psittacine Research Project, Number 1. Ann Brice, Ed. Department of Avian Sciences, University of California, Davis.) I also wrote several articles for bird publications and proceedings asking whether hybridization has a place in aviculture.

In many ways, I hold E.B.'s position. As a conservation biologist, ecologist and evolutionary biologist, I prefer parrots in captivity to stay as they are in the wild.

Originally, I took (and still take) the position that private aviculture holds a treasure in the form of established breeding populations of species that are threatened or endangered in the wild. I imagined what would have happened had the aviculturists in Europe had the foresight to maintain a population of Carolina Parakeets Conuropsis carolinensis for long enough, so that their offspring could restore this species to its original range in the United States. To do so would require a sufficiently large population and sound breeding practices. Importantly, the genetic architecture would still be in place to allow those individuals to survive and reproduce in the environments in which their ancestral populations originally evolved. Hybridization was not the only threat to achieving this goal, but it was certainly the gravest.

Since the early 1990's, my position has softened somewhat, or should I say, diversified. My colleague, Jamie Gilardi, has pointed out to me that as many parrot individuals live in captivity as in the wild. As E.B. says, by far most of those individuals would not be released to the wild and moreover could not survive there. Also, other threats to the feasibility of using captive-bred individuals to augment or re-establish wild populations have become clearer. One of those is the inevitable transfer of viruses from their original host populations to those of species that the viruses would never encounter in the wild. And, once established, these viruses will never be eradicated. This spectre of epidemic makes re-introductions all the more problematic.

For these and other reasons, I have changed my position on the domestication of parrots. Now, I say "Why not?"

For one, captive life is nothing like life in the wild. If aviculture develops lines of parrots more suited to lives with humans, then those individuals will lead higher quality lives. Perhaps parrots that are less jealous of their mates will be happier as pets—in their wild state, by far most parrots are life-long monogamous. This trait often results in their misery as pets, as well-meaning pet owners keep parrots each in solitary confinement or at least without a same-species companion so that the parrot will bond more to the human. Unfortunately, the human does not keep his or her end of the bargain and worse, objects to the parrot’s natural behaviors related to monogamous bonding with the human. Parrot with lower metabolic rates or different physiologies might fare better on captive foods, for example, not gain as much weight or need as much protein. Changing these traits is possible with "artificial selection" which humans have practiced for thousands of years to domesticate many species of plants and animals. And if humans practice this sort of captive selective breeding, then why not make the parrots look really different than their wild counterparts? As Rick Jordan once challenged me, why not breed a black macaw? Or a purple, pink polka dot macaw? Their appearance would hardly matter if domesticated parrots had other genetic traits suited for captivity but not for the wild.

Another reason is that espoused by my colleague, Nate Flesness, Science Director of I.S.I.S. Long ago Nate introduced me to the idea that connection with nature through animals in captivity was a good thing, even if there were tradeoffs involved, such as the domestication of parrots might create. After all, how many of us can travel at will to a rainforest in Peru to see parrots? Having parrots living in harmony with us in our homes is a powerful conservation tool that I am sure is appreciated also by the staff and members of WPT.

Yet, my bias would still be E.B.'s viewpoint. Why lose optimism that captive parrots can be released to re-establish populations in their native ranges? Jamie has told me about many, very successful ventures, quite a few supported by the WPT, to introduce captive-bred and confiscated parrots back to free-living existences. I am thrilled and heartened by these efforts. Although pristine, primary rainforest and other non-disturbed habitats are vanishing, parrot populations can nevertheless thrive in the presence of humans. Parrots are intelligent, social, and usually generalist in their habits. Released individuals can easily establish healthy populations in the presence of humans, provided that their chicks are not relentlessly poached for the pet trade. The increasing populations of feral parrots around the world attest to this fact. Poaching in the native range should decrease with a combination of legal bans (I co-authored a paper with Tim Wright and others that spoke to the efficacy of legal bans) and thriving captive populations of those species maintained to preserve their wild characteristics.

In the end, I encourage aviculturists to maintain their interest in and support of conservation. One important way that they may do so is to continue to breed parrots with practices aimed to maintain the genetic architecture of wild populations, just in case descendents from their lines may be needed in restoration projects. While I no longer denounce domestication of parrots, and I even encourage it, I see no reason why we should abandon conservation breeding. It is my hope that many parrot enthusiasts of all stripes will continue to support the conservation of wild parrots in any way that they can.

Cathy Toft
Professor Emerita
Department of Evolution & Ecology
Center for Population Biology
University of California Davis.

Answered by E.B. Cravens:

Dear Jade, That is a very difficult question to answer, especially from afar. As rose-breasted cockatoos can be quite aggressive to mates or perceived mates in a captivity situation, it follows that you must proceed very carefully.

First analyse whether your pet in fact WANTS another bird in the house or a companion. Many parrots are so attached to their owners that they resent a newcomer.

To choose another rose-breasted cockatoo would be a challenge. Again, dominance and jealousy and abuse can enter the scene and make matters problematic if not outright dangerous.

Under no circumstances would I choose a young female rose-breasted as your male will know it is a hen right away, and will try to get sexual with it long before she is ever ready to accept him as a partner. This means he will more than likely get aggressive and put fear into her at some point--leading to little chance she will be his preen partner for many many months if at all.

You could try another cockatoo species such as Goffin's, even try a male bird in hopes that the two would become buddies without copulation or breeding needs being a serious issue. But the challenge here would be to find a trial basis for a companion before purchase (perhaps an understanding adoption agency) since if you purchase on speculation and the two birds do not get along, you will not be stuck with a second dilemma.

I have know lorikeets to befriend rose-breasteds, also amazons and greys have been know to befriend these pink cockatoos--Rosies by and large are touchy feely psittacines and take well to any affectionate bird as long as they are not jealous of you or intimidated by being pushed too quickly towards acceptance.

If you do decide on a parrot from another geographical continent--amazon or grey, then it would normally be okay to get a baby bird, either gender, and allow the two to interact slowly and gradually--sexual issues are usually minimal between parrot friends of totally unrelated genera.

Good luck, and keep the list posted.
You did not give your cockatoo's name!

Aloha, EB

Answered by E.B. Cravens:

Dear Gina, Sorry it has taken so long to get back. We have been away on and off for November. It is hard to say what effects the spraying would have on the tree system, but I could find no information on that. I would probably use the newer growth branches with my flock after hosing them off or washing in the shower in the house.

Good luck.
EB

Answered by E.B. Cravens:

Dear Jo, First of all it is fine to remember that none of us ever meets the needs of our parrots "completely" in a captive situation, and I applaud you for doing the best you can with these two greys.

It is not unusual to find female hand raised psittacines that have absolutely no interest in befriending a male bird of their species. This is one of the pitfalls of being raised as orphans without adult parrot interaction and role models. April and I have the same dysfunctional situation with two of our female macaws. Both crave affections, but disdain the males we have offered them as companions.

Now that being given, it would appear that Peaches is most content with you humans and the best resolution at this time would be to keep her happy and healthy and stress free by being a loved pet. She is the older of the two greys and would both be more likely not to really take to a new arrival as per the two year old Vincent; plus she would be the one to preferably be given the lead where any sexuality enters the situation.

If she were to get nesty and start discovering dark corners and shredding materials, then her mind might be more likely to turn to Vincent for certain need satisfactions. This could happen any year now, but who knows?

It is not something we want to pressure our well-adjusted pet parrots to do, since accepting a mate, choosing to lay eggs, and all that goes with this road can bring as many complications for you and your birds as it solves...

Now, the question of whether to acquire yet another parrot to befriend Vincent and thus satisfy his desires at present is something you must think over carefully. Threesomes in parrot households can be interesting, but changeable and competitive. The best scenario would be if you were able to do a trial with another grey hen and make absolutely sure that Vincent would
like and accept her and vice versa. Otherwise you have gone out and acquired a third bird that may be a third "single" and need things other than what we humans project!

Another way of approaching the problem would be to try and take Vincent's focus off of Peaches. Give them less time in the same sight and sound space, offer him outdoor cage stimulation and natural tree boughs and flowers and grass and sandy soil in a tray to dig around in, perhaps a cardboard play box with several entrance holes to be his own "hideaway." Diversion is a
great tool for obsessive but celibate parrots!

When Peaches gets to see these things happening, she may be attracted to the activities. Shared activities are the best way to get two parrots to befriend one another without letting one dominate the other and cause fears or timidity. That means shared baths, shared foraging, shared exploration of interesting things like hollow logs, palm plants, etc. If Peaches does not
take to such activities readily, chances are you have a hen like our macaws--not coincidentally these two spend very little time entertaining themselves and disdain normal toys and play.

I wish you luck in your endeavor. Please keep in touch with WPT. And keep in mind that if Vincent is only two, he has quite a few phases to go through yet before he becomes a routinely predictable adult male grey.

With aloha, EB

Answered by E.B. Cravens:

Thank you for considering an adoption parrot for your Cosmo's companion. In doing so, you are performing two compassionate acts at once!

The proper size parrot to become friends with a Green-cheeked Conure would be another conure or something in the lovebird, Senegal or larger/not as large as a grey size range...

The Quaker up for adoption is a really perfect possibility as we have found monk parakeets to be social and friendly, they allo-preen like conures do, and tend to be laid back and accepting of other parrots.

The questions about that particular quaker would be is it the opposite gender to your green cheek (not necessary but adds a bit of spice to a friendship!), whether it is a healthy parrot, and why is it up for adoption--i.e. does it have behavior issues like extreme jealousy of human keepers, attacks other smaller birds, food bowl competition anxieties, those kinds of things.

Consider noise and whether one or both of the birds are flying pets.

You are correct that the parrots will need TWO cages. Friendship among psittacines depends upon the birds and cannot be forced by humans. They will determine where and when they play together or begin touching, and when they wish to be in their own private space (like for eating and sleeping). If after several months, they begin hanging out together and sleeping in the same cage, the other cage--hopefully the smaller of the two--can be moved out.

It is essential that you ask yourself "does Cosmo really want another parrot in the house." Human feelings about what we think is best for our birds can confuse an issue about what the parrot actually wishes. Green cheeks can be territorial or devoted to one person and this can express as macho and dislike if another parrot is introduced. That is why it is best to always bring another bird into a home slowy--like in a different room where it can be heard but not seen for some weeks. This also solves the problems of quarantine for even if two birds are healthy, they sometimes have microbes that are not so compatible once the two share a close air space or food bowl.

Another consideration is whether the Quaker is handleable by human keepers (biting?) and whether the two birds would become so close that you become the third creature in a triangle of affections. I consider this an acceptable scenario for my birds in that it is more natural than human dependence, but it will change the dynamics of your affections with Cosmo, should the two buddies become very bonded.

At the bird store in Santa Fe, we used to have the owner bring his or her pet in for a meeting with the potential companion. That is not the same as seeing what happens in Cosmos' home, but it does allow first impressions. Absolutely perfect would be to have permission to take the Quaker home for a trial with the option of bringing it back if things did not work out. Responsible bird stores do not "stick" new owners with a pet sale or adoption that is detrimental to the birds or the humans involved!

Good luck and keep the list informed on your progress.
With aloha, EB Cravens

[Update September 29, 2009]
Hi EB! Thank you very much for your advice regarding my green-cheeked conure, Cosmo, and the things to consider when seeking an avian companion. Unfortunately or fortunately, the Quaker parrot was adopted before I returned to the store. There was however, a wonderfully tempered pineapple green-cheek for sale. He (or she) is the same age as Cosmo, and has resided in the store for the past year. The store owner was not in favor of a "trial sale" for me to determine the compatability of the birds, and so I relied on my own judgement (after several visits) and crossed my fingers. I brought Noodles home, kept him in another room (in ear-shot of Cosmo) for the quarantine period. Slowly, I started to introduce them, moved the cages closer, and now they are at the point of enjoying supervised play time together. They allopreen and contact-call when one is out of sight. Cosmo is a little territorial about his favorite foods, so I make sure to eliminate that concern when they're together. I'm amazed to see how different their personalities are, and am very glad that they enjoy each others company. I am not sure if they will ever share the same cage, but their daytime and sleeping cages are close and they have plenty of opportunity to spend with each other, as well as their human companions.

I greatly appreciate your expert advice and enjoy learning more from the WPT forums and blogs!

Answered by E.B. Cravens:

Dear Bettina, The short answer to your question is we would offer African greys a nesting box out of thick wood (not metal or plastic!) which was 8 inches by 10 inches interior floor size, 30 inches tall, 4 to 5 inch round opening at the top under a large overhanging roof board. It needs to be facing a private area so the hen and cock do not always have to be looking out of their box and seeing other greys interested. Food and water should be near at hand so the pair does not have to compete for nourishment or choose to eat and drink less because they do not want to leave their egg clutch and venture far.

Inside we place coarse wood chips (not sawdust) and a few chunks of bark and rotting log material for them to chew up, also a small green bough of eucalyptus, rosemary, etc. to deter bugs. Depth of chips is four inches to start, then they add to it usually by chewing.

The longer answer to your question would be "why are you breeding African greys" at all. As can be seen from your eight rescue Greys, there are so very many unwanted parrots of all kinds out there, and sometimes it seems best not to bring more babies into the world where good 'forever' homes are increasingly hard to find...

Do you have a plan for the chicks you might get? Is the space they are kept in large enough for three, four, six or more extra Greys? Are you making a decision to breed to sell or adopt out? How old are you and your family, and is everyone committed to long term care for the young parrots?

Now, I am not trying to be negative here. There are some fine ethical reasons for permitting a pair of African greys that wish to become sexual and have a family, go ahead and do so. But it can become complicated, certainly in a colony situation where all birds are not firmly bonded and paired up. In the wilds we know that greys nest in "communal" types of situations--but captive parrots can have issues about territory and baby noises coming from a box and extra food treats (pairs with babies being fed need four or five times the food that everyone else gets and it often needs to be special, i.e. premium greens, extra nuts and cooked beans and sprouted pulses, corn on the cob, pomegranate and fig seeds, soft food, etc.) Your situation may make it hard to provide extra nourishment to the pairs setting on eggs and feeding chicks without making other birds jealous or assertive.

There are also the serious questions of double and triple clutching breeding parrots. It is early in the season still. Do you plan to let the parents do the fledging and weaning, or take away babies for human feedings?

Anyway, I applaud your concern and the fact that you were willing to take on the care of eight needy, unwanted grey parrots. Just think carefully and proceed slowly with this next phase and realize there are many options, like hard boiling or addling the eggs and giving your pairs a chance to copulate and interfeed and set on eggs to term in a peaceful family pair way--without actually producing more captive Greys.

Good luck to you,
With aloha, EB Cravens

Answered by E.B. Cravens:

Dear Rodney, It has been my experience that many African parrots will not bathe in their water dish and if not trained young, can be afraid of hoses or spray bottles. Your lettuce leaves attempt was on the right track, but a more positive way to bring out your Grey's instincts would be to get a good sized, thick leafy bough of some soft-leaved tree--not oak for example, but more elm or poplar or plum. When she is accustomed to perching in the branches or being near them on her perch, get a spray bottle filled with warm water and spray the leaves near her but not on her. Concentrate on feet level and spraying a VERY LIGHT mist up in the air to sprinkle down on the leaves and a bit on her head and back. Make imitations of her most joyous sounds while you are doing it and go about it very patiently. If she backs off, stop getting her misted and just do the leaves until they are soaked. Then go away and let her react. This procedure has coaxed many of my timid bathers to begin romping through the wet leaves on their own.

If you take her into the shower, just put her up on a wet stable towel on the shower curtain pole and let her watch you and soak in the damp warm air and the humidity--even that is good for her. She may eventually become comfortable enough that you could gently splash her a bit and get her used to water as nothing to fear. Again choose a habitual joy "shower noise" to utter to show this is supposed to be fun!

Good luck and keep us posted on her progress.
EB

Answered by E.B. Cravens:

Dear Lee, First of all congratulations for allowing your parrots to retain their wing feathers and fly around!
 
More and more conscientious pet bird owners are discovering the joy (and convenience) of having flighted psittacines in the home.
 
It is usual that the larger the parrot, the more it will have to work and hence tire when flying inside a house. This explains why the Jardine's pants more strongly than the Senegal after flight. Just maneuvering indoors is much more difficult for a larger bird. In an outside or wild situation, the Jardine's would be flapping briskly and flying very long distances in order to keep fit. This is not possible indoors.
 
The way I have solved this problem with many of my flighted indoor pets is to trim the first two narrow strong ribbed primary flight feathers at the front of the wing. This effectively cuts down the flight capacity for speed by about 15% depending upon species and athleticism of the parrot; but it does not seriously affect maneuverability. The pet will then begin to flap more exuberantly to accomplish the same flight skills it is used to and will begin getting stronger and making up the 15% difference. The choice can then be made whether to take a third feather or part of the third outermost feather--something we do not always do.
 
Pay particular attention to the speed and noise of your Jardine's flight as that will tell you how much effort he or she is expending. As Jardine's are stocky psittacines, they do need more primaries to get around easily--than say a cockatiel or conure. So it would be most prudent to trim only one of the first two feathers, on both wings the same of course, at a time; then wait a week and do the second.
 
Also it would be well to take the time to examine your feeding regimen. Most of us overfeed our parrots and keep them 5-10% overweight all the time--especially in the overheating of winter homes. Cut back the fat and heavy carbs in a few food items and replace it with sprouted pulses, fruit pips like pomegranate, melon, papaya, passion fruit, fig, etc. and your bird will trim down accordingly.
 
Good luck.
Aloha, EB